CENT Paper No.7:
SOME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ABOUT COGNITIVE EMOTIVE NARRATIVE THERAPY AND
ITS CREATOR, DR JIM BYRNE
Based on the plans for
a teleseminar by Dr Jim Byrne; hosted by Dr Pam Garcy
Copyright
(c) Jim Byrne, November 2009
Friday 20th November 2009
4.00pm
Texas time; 10.00pm in the UK
(This was the plan for the teleseminar.
However, because of a technical hitch at the start of the event, we lost time and had to jump right into the middle of the
interview, and we threw away the questions in the process!)
Q1:
Could you tell us something about yourself, and how you got into counselling and psychotherapy?
I've been married to Renata for 29 years; very happily. We are best friends, and
we enjoy walking in the countryside.
I'm a workophile; and I spend
most of my time working on one thing or another.
I'm essentially
an independent academic intellectual with an interest in the human mind and human emotions. I mainly work as an counsellor,
coach, psychotherapist, and I do lots of research and writing; including blog writing and social networking.
A "wild time" for me is a cup of coffee and a visit to a book store!
Q1: continued...As for how I got into counselling and psychotherapy...
My career in vocational education and training, and being a learning coach, came to
an end, and I needed to diversify.
I spotted an opportunity to offer
a more emotional form of coaching and began to train as an REBT therapist. I had been studying REBT since 1992, to cope
with an earlier career crisis.
So I trained as an REBT Therapist
(in 1998-99); moved on to take a Postgraduate Diploma in Counselling Psychology and Psychotherapy; and then my Doctorate in
Counselling, which I completed this year (2009).
That's the formal
story of how it all happened. But there is also an informal, social psychological story...
In this second, informal story, I was destined to get into psychology, because:
My parents had an arranged marriage; my father was 17 years older than my mother; they did not love each other; I
got caught in a cross-cultural conflict because I was a country-boy who went to school in an urban middle class environment
in which I was not accepted, and (of course) I did not accept my peers.
My
earliest introductions to psychology were: reading Psychology Today at the age of 14 years; having a partial Freudian analysis
at the age of 22 for relationship problems with my peers; using Gestalt therapy to work on my relationships with my parents;
going through marriage guidance counselling using Transactional Analysis in my mid-30s, and so on. (See my Story of
Origins, here: http://www.abc-counselling.com/id166.html).
So there was a formal route and an informal route
involved in this journey to becoming a counsellor, psychotherapist, psychologist.
2. What type of work do you currently do?
I am
in private practice as a counselling psychologist, in West Yorkshire; and by telephone all over the world. I also do
email counselling, and some work over the computer with voice and web camera.
I see clients of all ages from 13 to 77; but mainly aged 30 to 55.
I deal with problems of anger, anxiety, depression, stress, couples therapy, and work related problems like procrastination,
assertiveness training, and so on.
I also run some training courses,
mainly at a distance, in rebt, cbt and cent.
And I write a couple
of blogs, maintain my website, write articles; and I am currently working on getting my first book on CENT published.
(See the outline of the book on the foot of the Institute for CENT web page, here: http://www.abc-counselling.com/id112.html).
Q3. What is Cognitive Emotive Narrative
Therapy?
Essentially this is an integration of REBT, TA,
Object Relations theory, moral philosophy, and aspects of Zen philosophy.
It is not an eclectic fusion, but rather a true integration of models, so the CENT models ‘account for' the
id, ego, superego (from Freud); the Parent, Adult and Child Ego states (from TA); the mother/child symbiosis, and gradual
individuation, from Object Relations; cognitive-emotive ‘frames' from frame theory[1]; and rational and irrational beliefs from REBT; all in an interrelated set of basic CENT models. (More
here: http://www.abc-counselling.com/id75.html).
Q3. What is Cognitive Emotive Narrative
Therapy? ...continued...
Just as REBT gets the client to
reduce the intensity of their emotions by changing their beliefs; CENT gets the client to reduce the intensity of their emotions
by changing the frames through which they are viewing the world.
Frames
are sets of inferences, linked to emotions, which were build up in the past, are habitual, stored non-consciously (below the
level of conscious awareness, and totally and forever beyond directconscious inspection) - and are
trigged by pattern matching of a stimulus, a frame, and a linked cognitive-emotive-behavioural response.
Q4. How and why did CENT come into existence?
Again there is a formal and an informal story about this.
The formal story is that I have always been curious about different theories, being essentially a kind of independent
academic intellectual. It was inevitable that I would be too curious to be able to restrict myself to one model of therapy.
I discovered Freud in 1968; Rogers and Perles in 1977; Berne and the Buddha in 1979;
Emile Coue and Werner Erhard in the early 80s; and Albert Ellis in 1992. (I have at least 12 thinking skills role models,
explicitly held; and perhaps another dozen below the level of conscious awareness!)
Q4...continued...
When I discovered Albert Ellis,
in 1992, I became quite an Ellisian purist - or so I thought. However, despite training in REBT in 1998-99, I was back
studying 13 different systems of therapy by 2001; and that militated against becoming, or remaining, a pure Ellisian REBTer.
Then when I began my doctorate I discovered the writings of Smith and Glass, 1977, and
Smith Glass and Miller, 1980, on the equivalence of outcomes among therapies of different types. I continued to look
at that research tradition in the work of Bruce Wampold and his colleagues, Messer, Ahn and Coleman.
Q4...continued...
That's the formal story of why
and how CENT came into existence. I have had varied experiences, and needed to pull them together into a coherent system.
But then there's the informal story. That begins with the removal of Dr Albert
Ellis from his work role at the Albert Ellis Institute in July 2005; and from his seat on the Board in September 2005.
The board of the AEI split 4:3, and never reconciled to each other, in that there are
still at least two follower-camps who do not speak to each other. (See the About Albert Ellis
page, here: http://www.abc-counselling.com/id140.html).
I responded to Al's request for support to get
him reinstated. A kind of ‘civil war' ensued, in which the supporters of Ellis found it impossible to make moral
statements about the situation, because we did not think we could say: "This should not be
happening".
This caused me to wonder if REBT is capable of sustaining
a moral discourse, and I eventually concluded that it could not. I was also disenamoured of REBT's claim to be ‘supremely
rational', based on some of the behaviours I witnessed during that campaign. And my own involvement was far from rational
- being somewhat over-heated and emotional! (I have since taken up a study of Critical Thinking
skill in order to ‘cool my thinking down'!)
To sum
up my answer to this question:
Both the formal story and
the informal story above, taken together, account for why CENT came into existence. As to how it happened, I simply
decided to set up the Institute for CENT Studies, and to begin to write about my growing sense of the possibility of meshing
the mind-models of Freud, Ellis, Berne, Beck and the Buddha into a set of integrated new models for the 21st century
- including a moral component.
That's essentially it.
Q5: What are the major overlaps with REBT?
CENT accepts that REBT was correct in identifying the following four problems at the
root of much or even most emotional disturbance:
Demandingness;
Awfulizing;
Low frustration tolerance;
Condemning and damning
self, others and the world.
Question 5. Continued...
CENT acknowledges the importance of unconditional self-acceptance in relation to problems
of incompetence or poor behavioural performances. However, we do not use the concept of USA. Instead we talk about
One-Conditional Self Acceptance. And that one condition is that you and I can accept ourselves
completely, no matter how we fail or underachieve, so long as we are committed to living a moral life. I will not unconditionally
accept anybody who says: "I have no commitment to living a moral life!"
Q5. Continued...
CENT accepts that distressed clients
probably have inappropriate shoulds amongst their frames; but we do not go after those shoulds as our first priority.
Instead we ask the client to ‘reverse the frame', or add a sub-clause which takes the sting out of the primary clause.
That changes their mind-set just as thoroughly as ‘challenging the should'. We do not challenge the should, because
we think there are appropriate shoulds, and we are not involved in a crusade against ‘shoulds' as such; only inappropriateshoulds.
(An inappropriate should is one that is unrealistic, illogical, authoritarian as opposed to authorative, overgeneralizing,
and so on).
Q5. Continued
We sometimes use the ABC model from REBT; and sometimes the APET model from the Human Givens
tradition.
We also debate and dispute the client's perceptions -
namely their schemas and frames - and their irrational beliefs if they come into view.
Q6: What are the major differences with REBT?
As
I indicated above, we do not use Unconditional Self Acceptance (USA) - but rather One-Conditional
Self Acceptance. I will accept myself totally, so long as I remain committed to acting morally in the world.
We do not go after the ‘should' as the holy grail of therapeutic effectiveness.
We believe that anything that helps the client to re-frame their problems will produce a better set of emotional and behavioural
responses in them.
Q6: What are the major differences with
REBT? ...continued...
Also, whereas Al advised his clients
to "forget the god-awful past"; in CENT we believe some clients have had such a dysfunctional past that it needs
to be unearthed, reconsidered, reinterpreted, and filed away in a way that is more conducive to a happier life. For
this purpose we use written narratives in which the client explores the story of their origins, or the story of early relationships,
etc. I then analyze those narratives and suggest ways to reframe aspects of their story.
Q7: What are the core models used with clients in CENT?
The easiest to explain is the Windows Model. This can be used in a four or five windows version.
This model is predicated on the assumption that all humans are engaged in interpretation
of their environments all of the time, but that they think they are simply looking at what is ‘out there'.
The windows model makes this process of interpretation, or framing explicit.
Q7: continued...
Let's
look at the five windows, and the Mind Hut, one at a time:
Our habit-based,
non-conscious framing and interpretation operate like this: Normally, we think we are looking out through our eyes at
‘reality' as it exists. This is ‘naïve realism'. In fact, we are always interpreting
what we think we are seeing/hearing/sensing. Furthermore, although we we are (normally) convinced that there is only
one valid way of perceiving what we are perceiving - that it is absolutely fixed and true - ‘reality' there are always
many ways to look at anything. (There is no unified ‘god's-eye-view' available to humans).
The Windows Model of CENT makes the process of interpretation explicit, and multi-focal.
We move the client away from their naïve realism, and also into a multi-focal world, in which there are various ways
of looking at things; none of which is absolutely true; but each of which is useful.
This model is described in some detail here - in its original simplicity - (http://www.abc-counselling.com/2009.05.01_arch.html#1243616186099); and here - in a more refined, more recent format (http://www.abc-counselling.com/2009.08.01_arch.html#1251441913228). And there are several other statements about this model in later posts on the Happiness Blog, here:
http://www.abc-counselling.com/id143.html.
Q7: continued...
The second model I want to mention is the ‘parental colonization' model (very
briefly).
REBT does not place much emphasis on the past. CENT
does.
Imagine two transparent glass discs about the
size of dinner plates: one sun yellow and one sky blue. Imagine they are flat, and a few millimetres in thickness.
The yellow one represents the baby at the time of its birth, and the blue represents
the mother. The mother ‘colonizes' the baby - takes it over completely - (because that is the only way the baby
can survive), and overlaps the baby's psyche, before the baby has any chance to come to conscious awareness. Imagine
the blue glass disc represents the mother and the yellow glass disc represents the baby. The overlap (say of about 50%)
will show up as green; and it is in this green space - the space of ‘dialectical interpenetration - that the ego of
the new baby will begin to emerge, as more and more encounters occur between the (initially symbiotic, and increasingly separate)
mother and baby... (This will be discussed in more detail elsewhere). (Summation of this model: the foundations of the
‘individual' are social. The ego emerges in a colonized social space. The individual is partly made up of
‘other people'. What we take over from them forms the foundations of our possibilities. Any dysfunctional
stuff taken over from them, and not processed, must later become the subject of a process of therapy in which new ways of
understanding the world become possible for the first time).
The
third model is too complex to discuss in our present context.
Q8:
What current research is being done on CENT?
I am currently looking for 6 to 8 research participants to engage in narrative analysis. In return I will offer
free email counselling.
Participants must not be distressed or depressed,
but must have a serious concern about their past that they want to dig up and analyze, and file away properly.
The stories to be investigated are: The story of personal origins; the story of relationships;
the story of character development; and some others. (More information here: http://www.abc-counselling.com/id177.html)
If this sounds like too much to ask, then I am
willing to settle for just one story. That could be the story of origins, or the story of relationships, depending upon
the burning issues of the volunteers who show up.
Q9: Are
there any resources available on CENT for students and counsellors....?
Yes. I have written five papers on CENT, plus a statement of Aims and Activities.
(See the CENT Institute page, here: http://www.abc-counselling.com/id112.html.)
I will be posting new papers as and when I get
the time to write them up.
I am also looking for a publisher for
my first book on CENT, which is briefly described on the Institute page.
~~~
Copyright (c) 2009, Dr Jim Byrne
~~~
To reference this paper in a publication, please use the following citation:
CENT Paper No.7:
Byrne, J. (2009g) Some questions and answers about Cognitive Emotive Narrative Thearpy and its creator, Dr Jim Byrne.
CENT Paper No.7. Hebden Bridge: The Institute for CENT Studies.
~~~
ABC Coaching and Counselling Services
Email: jim.byrne@abc-counselling.com
[1]I have written a couple of blog posts on Frame Theory here: (http://www.abc-counselling.com/2009.11.01_arch.html#1257526527563) and here: (http://www.abc-counselling.com/2009.11.01_arch.html#1258217164734).